LeftyProf

Random thoughts on 60 years of independence

August 14, 2007 · 11 Comments

Whose Nation? Whose Independence?

What, to the dalit, is the 15th of August? What, to the adivasis, have these sixty years brought? What, to working-class men and women, do today’s celebrations mean?

In 1841, the anti-slavery crusader and abolitionist Frederick Douglass asked of his white American audience, “What, to the Negro, is the Fourth of July?” In a moving section of his speech, he speaks of slavery as a phenomenon that mocks the very notion of independence.

Fellow-citizens, above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wail of millions! whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are, to-day, rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them…. To forget them, to pass lightly over their wrongs, and to chime in with the popular theme, would be treason most scandalous and shocking, and would make me a reproach before God and the world. My subject, then, fellow-citizens, is American slavery. I shall see this day and its popular characteristics from the slave’s point of view…. I do not hesitate to declare, with all my soul, that the character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this 4th of July! Whether we turn to the declarations of the past, or to the professions of the present, the conduct of the nation seems equally hideous and revolting. America is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future. Standing with God and the crushed and bleeding slave on this occasion, I will, in the name of humanity which is outraged, in the name of liberty which is fettered, in the name of the constitution and the Bible which are disregarded and trampled upon, dare to call in question and to denounce, with all the emphasis I can command, everything that serves to perpetuate slavery–the great sin and shame of America! … I will use the severest language I can command; and yet not one word shall escape me that any man, whose judgment is not blinded by prejudice, or who is not at heart a slaveholder, shall not confess to be right and just.

Read through the eyes of India’s millions of impoverished citizens, Douglass’ words ring true in contemporary India as they did in pre-Civil War America.

Thinking about justice

This is not to say that the Indian elites are totally oblivious to the plight of the oppressed and the downtrodden. In fact, a public debate has been raging for years now about affirmative action, reservations and set-asides, quotas in hiring, and other remedial measures that the state might undertake in order to help redress centuries of discrimination.

The fact is, the presence of inequality, oppression and poverty on such a vast scale (see my previous post, “India Shining, indeed“) is an embarrassment for a ruling class that sees itself as competing on the world stage for status and prestige as a global power. So there has to be some attempt at solving these problems, right? Right.

Enter the Indian think tank.

Indicus Analytics, which calls itself “India’s leading economics research firm,” conducted a study titled “Peoples’ Expectations from the State in the Context of a Globalizing Indian Economy” for the National Foundation for India (NFI). A pdf file of the full report can be found here. The study was aimed at understanding what people expect of the government, particularly in relation to “underprivileged” sections of society. In other words, whether Indians favor government involvement in aiding dalits, so-called “Other Backward Classes” (OBCs), and other oppressed communities.

The study seems to have been conducted quite well. It’s survey sample size, and its attendant methodology seem, to my untrained eye, to be quite sound. The results of the study were fairly unambiguous. One of its major findings was that, regardless of class or caste,

majorities of the respondents are sympathetic towards the underprivileged sections of the society and favor the need for special schemes for their development. Majority of them suggest government jobs for them. Those in high-income group believe better access to health and education service is also important for their overall development. Only about 21.71 percent of respondents consider that the government should only focus on better opportunities for all. (p. 11)

So it appears that most Indians believe that oppressed castes, dalits, and other marginalized communities ought to receive special government assistance. Affirmative action (reservation) policies, one might argue, would be welcomed by a broad spectrum of Indian society.

But we know that the loudest voices are those of people who oppose quotas and reservations. Why is this so?

Well, take a look at what the head of Indicus Analytics, one Laveesh Bhandari, has to say about the issue in a recent op-ed piece in the Indian Express. Titled “Social Justice Without PhDs,” the article lauds a recent Supreme Court ruling that stayed the implementation of quotas for OBCs in higher education. The government wanted to set aside 27 percent of seats in government-funded institutions, including the prestigious IITs and IIMs, for OBCs.

Now, there is no doubt a lot of political opportunism involved in the debate over quotas–the ruling UPA government is hardly a champion of the poor and the oppressed. Bhandari, however, critiques the quota proposals as unfeasible and impracticable. The crux of his “argument” is:

It is quite apparent to anyone who has gone to an Indian university that there is a lack of infrastructure, there is a lack of proper management, and there is a lack of quality teaching and teachers. None of these can be addressed within a year or two.

Why not? The prosperous Indian economy is awash in freshly laundered money–why not tap into some of that and make a real turnaround in infrastructure so as to be able to provide better educational opportunities for all?

Bhandari then goes on to make the same bland assessment of the state of teaching in India. There aren’t enough quality teachers and professors, he tells us, and therefore it is unrealistic to try to increase the number of seats in higher education. He briefly considers the possibility of hiring teachers from abroad, like China has done, and dismisses this too as unrealistic.

Having dismissed all possible means of implementing quotas as “unrealistic,” what does Bhandari offer as a solution to the lack of advancement of “OBCs”?

The OBCs (and all of Indian youth) would benefit more if our politicians devoted their highly innovative minds to figure out how we could ensure vocational and skill-based training for all.

In other words, keep the elite institutions as bastions of the … well, elite. Then, provide “skill-based” training to the OBCs so as to feed the growing labor demands of a growing economy. Good, skilled cheap labor then becomes available to … the elites. Who needs quotas and reservations?

To hear Bhandari pontificate about achieving “Social Justice Without PhDs,” when he himself has a Ph.D. from Boston University, is quite amusing.

Thus the head of a firm that conducts a survey that shows widespread support for government action to boost the opportunities for OBCs writes an article that essentially goes against the spirit of that study! Astounding, isn’t it!

(The NFI, it turns out, is a “grant-making and fundraising organization” that funds NGOs in India, and is in turn funded by, among others, the ubiquitous Ford Foundation (with its shady history of collaboration with the CIA), European Christian aid missions like the Interchurch Organization for Development Cooperation (ICCO), and the American India Foundation, whose honorary president is none other than–you guessed it–Bill Clinton.)

Thinking of Kashmir

A nation that oppresses another can never be free. This is the essence of Marx’s argument about national oppression.

What does it mean to celebrate the “independence” of one’s nation, while at the same time denying another people their right to self-determination? A recent poll showed that 87% of the people of Srinagar continue to demand independence from both India and Pakistan.* Granted, Srinagar is not Kashmir, and still less is it representative of the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir. But the sheer unwillingness of Indians to even consider an independent Kashmir shows that their own conception of national independence is hollow, shallow, and exclusivist. Our independence is a good thing, but they can never be free: Kashmir is, and must remain, a part of India. Isn’t that what the British thought about “their” India?

So what is the meaning of Independence Day to Kashmiris, who have lost some 80,000 lives while fighting for self-determination?

On this “glorious” independence day, why not take a look at what one Kashmiri has to say about his own struggle for independence–check out my January, 2004, interview with Yasin Malik.

Thinking of Partition

Good fences make good neighbors, wrote Robert Frost. He certainly didn’t have the Indian subcontinent in mind.

Bring up the issue of partition in a discussion about Indian/Pakistani Independence Day celebrations, and you will be roundly rebuked. “We must look forward, not backward,” you will be told. But the very idea of an independent “India” and an independent “Pakistan” is inconceivable without reference to the holocaust that was Partition.

A passage from Amitav Ghosh’s novel, The Shadow Lines expresses this paradox. In it, the protagonist marvels at the fact that national boundaries have had such a strong hold on people’s imaginations. Looking at a map, he is amazed that

there had really been a time, not so long ago, when people, sensible people, of good intention, had thought that all maps were the same, that there was special enchantment in lines; I had to remind myself that they were not to be blamed for believing that there was something admirable in moving violence to the border and dealing with it through science and factories, for that was the pattern of the world. They had drawn their borders … hoping perhaps that once they had etched their border upon the map, the two bits of land would sail away from each other like the shifting tectonic plates of the prehistoric Gondwanaland. What would they think, I wondered, when the realized that they had created not a separation, but a yet-undiscovered irony … the simple fact that there had never been a moment in the four-thousand-year-old history of that map, when the places we know as Dhaka and Calcutta were more closely bound to each other than after they had drawn their lines….

——————–

*Thanks to Naveen for drawing my attention to this poll.

Thanks also to Desi Italiana’s intrepid questioning of nationalism for inspiring this post.

Categories: Communalism · Independence · India · Kashmir · Yasin Malik

11 responses so far ↓

  • Amardeep // August 15, 2007 at 10:38 am | Reply

    Ok, LeftyProf, I’ll bite.

    On Whose Nation? Whose Independence?: here I don’t disagree with you on the substance of the matter — the way India has treated its tribal populations (among other things) is fundamentally unacceptable.

    But I disagree on the way you frame things here– a free country that is flawed, often dysfunctional, and still a long way from justice for its millions of impoverished citizens, is still better than the same country under colonial rule. Independence might just be a symbol, but symbols count. And India’s independence is something worth celebrating, in a measured, self-critical way.

    On Thinking about justice: on caste reservations, I do disagree with you. I think India needs to fundamentally rethink its approach to caste politics. Reservations is a crude corrective, which to some extent reifies the injustice it claims to be against; there are better ways to end segregation based on caste. Endlessly expanding the system to include more and more groups without determining an economic link based on recent data is not the answer.

    On Thinking of Kashmir: the point that most current residents of Kashmir want to be independent of both India and Pakistan is flawed, because the Hindu population of Kashmir has long been in exile from that state. It’s also irrelevant, since one or the other large country will always exercise dominant military influence in that state. If India decides, magnanimously, to make the Kashmir Valley an independent state, it would immediately be invaded by Pakistan — isn’t that obvious to you? In my view, it’s best to make the LOC a national boundary, and grant a degree of political autonomy to the Kashmir Valley.

    And finally, on Thinking of Partition: I don’t think any serious commentators are really saying “forget partition, let’s move forward.” In fact, in both the western and Indian media this year there have been quite a number of essays written looking at the legacy of partition, and I think those reflections are immensely important.

    But I do think that your invocation of Ghosh as a way of suggesting that nation-states are in some sense fundamentally unjust (at least, I think that’s what you’re implying) is misdirected. It would be nice to live in a world where national boundaries didn’t matter, but we currently don’t live in that world. Nations may be artifactual to some extent (i.e., “imagined”), but they are artifacts that actively shape the lives of billions of people. It’s best to acknowledge that and, in a limited and skeptical/critical way, embrace it, rather than simply wish, nostalgically, that it would go away.

  • leftyprof // August 15, 2007 at 11:31 am | Reply

    But I disagree on the way you frame things here– a free country that is flawed, often dysfunctional, and still a long way from justice for its millions of impoverished citizens, is still better than the same country under colonial rule.

    Thanks for the comment, Amardeep. I knew that my post would lend itself to this misinterpretation, so let me take this opportunity to clarify something that ought to have been in the original post. I am not one of those who deny that decolonization was a good thing, or, like Maoists do, that decolonization even took place! No doubt, as you say, a flawed but free country is better off than a country under colonial rule. The spirit of my post was not so much to question the value of decolonization itself, but to question the hubris of the 60-year celebrations.

    On reservations: I haven’t yet seen one good counter-proposal from the anti-reservation folks. Until I see one, I would argue that reservations, like affirmative action in the U.S., are a limited, flawed, but necessary corrective to discrimination and prejudice.

    On the question of Kashmir, we are so far apart that I don’t know where to begin. You remind me of the fact that the majority of Hindus are still in exile. True enough (although many have been returning to Jammu in recent years). I said as much in my original post: “Granted, Srinagar is not Kashmir, and still less is it representative of the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir.”

    But here’s what I find quite remarkable:

    It’s also irrelevant, since one or the other large country will always exercise dominant military influence in that state. If India decides, magnanimously, to make the Kashmir Valley an independent state, it would immediately be invaded by Pakistan — isn’t that obvious to you?

    The cavalier manner in which you dismiss, with a simple word, a people’s desire for self-determination, is astounding. But don’t you see the circularity of your logic here? The Kashmiri demand for independence is “irrelevant” because India and Pakistan would never allow it to be free! This argument against the “viability” of independence for smaller nations is an old one. You choose to approach this from a real politik perspective.

    I would argue instead that if Indians (and Pakistanis) were to support Kashmiri demands for self-determination, that would go a long way towards building inter-religious and inter-national solidarity among the peoples of the subcontinent.

    Yes, the Indian rulers want to see the LOC made into a permanent border–in accepting this, you accept their logic. But by doing this, you sidestep the key issue here, which is that of the right to self-determination of the Kashmiris.

    I don’t think any serious commentators are really saying “forget partition, let’s move forward.”

    Well, I wasn’t really talking about “serious commentators,” but about a popular mood, which I think pervades Indian popular culture and consciousness these days, and which is of a piece with the nationalist hubris of the urban middle classes.

    You say that my invocation of Ghosh is misdirected. Why? Why is it wrong to remind people of the fact that “India” and “Pakistan” are historical constructs? Why should we chime in with the rest of the nationalist crowd and continue to perpetuate the myth that Indians and Pakistanis are fundamentally different, and never the twain shall meet? Why is it wrong to ask people to take a minute to think, in the midst of all the flag-waving and patriotism, about the fact that our boundaries and borders are historically constructed, and not god-given or natural?

    It would be nice to live in a world where national boundaries didn’t matter

    It would, wouldn’t it? If you really think so, then why object to my quoting a literary passage that evokes that sentiment?

    It’s best to acknowledge that and, in a limited and skeptical/critical way, embrace it, rather than simply wish, nostalgically, that it would go away.

    Amardeep, you erect a strawman that you then proceed to tear down with a flourish. What in my post tells you that I think nations would “simply go away”?

    Nothing that you’ve said here is any different from the myriad celebrations of Indian nationalism that we can see today, both on the internet and in the media. So, I’m still curious: why do you consider yourself a “mutineer”?

  • malathi // August 15, 2007 at 11:50 am | Reply

    Amardeep says: …[nations] are artifacts that actively shape the lives of billions of people.

    The ’shaping’ done is for better and for worse. Better for some; worse for others, in a non-random, systematic way.

    Try questioning this non-randomness, you will get nowhere as the hold of the monopoly-state is strong, unchallenged and fueled in a self-sustaining manner.

    Amardeep says: …Reservations is a crude corrective, which to some extent reifies the injustice it claims to be against; there are better ways to end segregation based on caste.

    Amardeep, nobody that I know who voices or echoes the above sentiment knows my rural girl-cousins–OBCs, dirt poor, 1st generation into college/univ, 1st generation to sit for technical exams in English–who yes, grabbed the ‘lifeline’ TN govt offered them in the form of reservations in engineering college–and graduated and entered the workforce. They are not innovative thinkers or trailblazers. They are timid, awkward, tasting a quality of life that their parents never experienced. They also do not have the English skills and confidence to represent their viewpoint on blogsites or other public discussion venues. But they are now productive, contributing, code-writing, tax-paying members of Indian society. In other words, they are small success stories that were born out of this messy reservation system that historical elites so despise and refuse to acknowledge.

  • Desi Italiana // August 15, 2007 at 1:22 pm | Reply

    Amardeep:

    “the point that most current residents of Kashmir want to be independent of both India and Pakistan is flawed, because the Hindu population of Kashmir has long been in exile from that state.”

    I don’t disagree with the fact that there has been religious cleansing of Kashmir.

    But I don’t really see the connection between that and some Kashmiris who want independence. I’m not going to agrue/assess the the merits of breaking off, but I think you’re talking about two issues, and I fail to see the logical connection here.

    “If India decides, magnanimously, to make the Kashmir Valley an independent state, it would immediately be invaded by Pakistan — isn’t that obvious to you?”

    What makes you think that India wouldn’t “invade” a free Kashmir as well? I think you’re being lopsided here, as if Pakistan can’t wait to get its hands on Kashmir. That may be true, but the Indian state has been far from benevolent.

    “I don’t think any serious commentators are really saying “forget partition, let’s move forward.”

    Um, the folks over at All Things Pakistan (ATP) do.

    “Reservations is a crude corrective, which to some extent reifies the injustice it claims to be against; there are better ways to end segregation based on caste. Endlessly expanding the system to include more and more groups without determining an economic link based on recent data is not the answer.”

    Come on, yaar. Has I-Day gotten to you, too? You do realize that reservations- for all of its pitfalls- don’t only address caste issues, but socio-economic issues as well? It is true that it is an immediate corrective and it tends to strengthen and rigidify groups, but you’re being really tunnel visioned. And to be quite honest, your comment comes off as somewhat elitist.

    The inequalities in India- for which reservations help alleviate to some extent- are not focused on “caste politics” only, nor do “caste politics” only involve politics, identity labels, and the economy. It’s not only about “caste” politics, but somehow distributing, allocating, and guaranteeing equal rights and access to all.

    And lastly,

    “But I disagree on the way you frame things here– a free country that is flawed, often dysfunctional, and still a LONG WAY FROM JUSTICE for its MILLIONS of IMPOVERISHED citizens, is still BETTER than the same country under COLONIAL rule.”

    Amardeep, please tell me you see the paradoxical, contradictory nature of your argument here.

  • Pakipoptart // August 15, 2007 at 6:55 pm | Reply

    I think the points made are valid and can be applied to any country. What I got out of this reading is that people celebrate Independence without really thinking what it means. I personally never understood why Independence days, even here in the US, are such a big deal. Its also interesting to me that you started the post with a quote from Frederick Douglass. I remember when I first moved to Chicago, his burial site was right down the street from me. I didn’t really know much about him, so I asked people that I knew in Chicago. The majority of people had no knowledge of him. I want to learn more about this history–and really celebrate when I feel there is something worthwhile to celebrate.

  • leftyprof // August 15, 2007 at 8:22 pm | Reply

    DI:

    I do agree with Amardeep that “a free country that is flawed, often dysfunctional, and still a long way from justice for its millions of impoverished citizens, is still better than the same country under colonial rule.”

    There is a Maoist argument that claims that decolonization was an illusion and that it didn’t achieve anything. I disagree with that. I think that the world-historical significance of decolonization, and of the cracking up of the erstwhile empires, cannot be underestimated.

    That said, I do agree with the thrust of your comment–we really do need to counter the Independence Day patriotic nonsense that seems to be saturating the airwaves right about now.

  • Pranav // August 15, 2007 at 11:58 pm | Reply

    “the point that most current residents of Kashmir want to be independent of both India and Pakistan is [...] irrelevant, since one or the other large country will always exercise dominant military influence in that state”

    Isn’t it difficult to argue for the importance of decolonization in India/Pakistan and, in the same breath, talk about the unviability of Kashmir as an independent state?

    If freedom from Britain was important in the former, regardless of the post-colonial fallout (and I agree with you), than why not in the case of occupied Kashmir?

    On the flip side, how unviable was the 1947 plan? A country split 1000 miles apart, with its arch-rival and co-splitee in between. Among the many consequences of this unviable solution forced into viability was…the situation in Kashmir.

    The same principles of national self-determination that apply in one case ought to in the other.

  • Amardeep // August 16, 2007 at 1:41 pm | Reply

    Hi folks. There are too many issues on the table here — Kashmir, Reservations, the idea of India (and nationalism in general)… Forgive me if I can’t address everything.

    CASTE

    From LeftyProf I haven’t yet seen one good counter-proposal from the anti-reservation folks. Until I see one, I would argue that reservations, like affirmative action in the U.S., are a limited, flawed, but necessary corrective to discrimination and prejudice.

    How about this for a counter-proposal: the government gives financial incentives to universities to admit people from SC/ST groups, people who are demonstrably from impoverished backgrounds (especially rural backgrounds), and people who are the first in their families to go to a university?

    From Desi Italiana: You do realize that reservations- for all of its pitfalls- don’t only address caste issues, but socio-economic issues as well? It is true that it is an immediate corrective and it tends to strengthen and rigidify groups, but you’re being really tunnel visioned.

    The problem with the recent OBC expansion proposal in particular is that there is growing evidence that there are many groups on the OBC schedules that are no longer economically “backwards.” And since the Indian census doesn’t ask about caste, the information on the demographic size of the OBCs (which was used when the reservations expansion was proposed last year) is based on information gathered by the British back in 1931. Isn’t it possible that the demographics might have changed in 75 years? Shouldn’t some sort of detailed study be conducted before implementing such a radical change in the educational and political system of the country?

    The problem is of course that doing a special ‘caste’ census, or adding caste into the existing census, would be extremely controversial — I doubt it would ever happen. Which is why I think it would be better to use categories like the ones I mentioned above, with particular focus on whether or not a student (or a perspective hire) comes from an impoverished background.

    KASHMIR

    From LeftyProf: The cavalier manner in which you dismiss, with a simple word, a people’s desire for self-determination, is astounding. But don’t you see the circularity of your logic here? The Kashmiri demand for independence is “irrelevant” because India and Pakistan would never allow it to be free! This argument against the “viability” of independence for smaller nations is an old one. You choose to approach this from a real politik perspective.

    Yes, I am approaching this particular issue from a realpolitik perspective to some extent. It will simply never happen — India is an artificial construct, but the only way it will stay together is if it insists that all of its separate regions and ethnic groups continue to “belong.” One reason the GoI will never let go of Kashmir is, it will then have no reason not to let go of parts of Assam. And other regions may soon follow suite.

    Relatedly, I’m not sure whether the population of the Kashmir Valley constitutes a potential “nation”; I have my doubts about the continued relevance of Kashmiriyat in the Kashmir Valley at the moment. The statistic you gave (89%) — where is that from, and when was it taken? As I understand it, today Islamism is much more prevalent today than it was in the 1980s, when the JKLF was at its peak. I also read a chapter of Chitralekha Zutshi’s book on Kashmir (reviewed at Himal here, which challenges Kashmiriyat as itself a kind of problematic, constructed ideology.

    If you’re interested in carrying this dialogue further, we might both agree to read Chitralekha’s book on or around a specific date, and post responses. (I’ve also been meaning to read Mridu Rai’s work on Kashmir/Kashmiriyat, and this might be a good excuse)

    As a side note, the results of this study support your perspective in some cases, but not in others. I’m curious about what your response is to these findings.

    Our conversation on Sepia Mutiny got off to a bad start. But I don’t want to fight — I know you have a background on Kashmir issues (I read your interview with Yasin Malik), and have knowledge and ideas on this subject that I am curious to hear more about.

  • leftyprof // August 16, 2007 at 3:20 pm | Reply

    Thanks for the response, Amardeep. I am interested in reading Zutshi’s book, and your suggestion of trying to do it by a certain date and posting responses is a good one–I’d never thought of this way of using a blog. Problem is, with the Fall semester starting up, I won’t be able to get to it until much later–maybe only as late as Thanksgiving. Wanna shoot for that?

    For now, I’ll just say this as a quick response on the Kashmir/Kashmiriyat question. A study of its constructedness, like Zutshi’s, is always welcome, as it would help us see how it emerged and why. However, I think it is important to not take its constructedness as a marker of its lack of “validity”. What I mean is that if, as I’m sure you’ll agree, all national identities are historically constructed, there’s no reason to suppose that Kashmiriyat would be an exception.

    Indian national identity is quite as much a construct as any other, but in the context of the struggle against colonial rule, it has a “legitimacy.”

    This “legitimacy” is not strictly ontological but political. This was the crux of Lenin’s argument against Luxemburg on the national question. In other words, the right to national self-determination for oppressed nations is a democratic (i.e., political) right, rather than a “moral” or “cultural” one, and needs to be seen in that light.

    International solidarity becomes meaningless unless the members of the dominant nation support and defend the right to self-determination of peoples subjugated by “their” nation.

    Regardless of what contemporary academic fashion might have us believe, and regardless of the numerous distortions that it has been subjected to at the hands of its practitioners, from Stalin to Mao to Castro, I still think that the classical Marxist approach to this question remains the most cogent, consistent, and practicable.

    Whether or not a people constitute a “nation” is a difficult question to raise, let alone answer, from the outside. The attempt to define the nation in strict positivist terms is, I think futile. In either case, there various reasons for defending the right to self-determination for Kashmiris; the notion of “Kashmiriyat” figures prominently in some of them, but not necessarily in others. In other words, one doesn’t necessarily have to subscribe to the cultural claims of a people in order to support their political demands, even if, in the minds of some of them, the two might be inextricably linked together.

    I defend Kashmiris’ right to self-determination precisely because I am a citizen of India. The notion that if Kashmir were to split off then other regions would follow as well does not bother me half as much as the Greater-India chauvinism that sanctions forcible annexation in the name of national unity, and that is the bulwark, not only of a coercive state apparatus, but of a regional international order that is constantly at the brink of war.

    Incidentally, I don’t think that political Islam, or Islamism, is much of a force in the valley. How could it be? It is very much an outside force that has disrupted the lives of the people, and that is seen by many to have hijacked the struggle for self-determination. One key indicator of this is the fact that the people of the valley reject Pakistani rule quite as much as they reject Indian rule. If the jihadis had succeeded in developing a following, this would have shown itself in some sort of support for Pakistan, but it hasn’t.

    The 87% figure, btw, comes from the CNN-IBN poll done recently in Srinagar and Jammu.

    Damn, there’s so much more to say, and so little time. Perhaps a longer blog post on why I defend Kashmiri self-determination might be in order at some point.

    I agree, our SM discussion got off on the wrong foot. But I must say that this has less to do with you than with the misconceptions I had about SM itself.

    To end where I began, how about doing the Zutshi book by Thanksgiving?

  • Amardeep // August 16, 2007 at 4:29 pm | Reply

    To end where I began, how about doing the Zutshi book by Thanksgiving?

    That sounds good. In the meanwhile I will ping you if I do any Kashmir-related posts. I usually cross-post anything substantial I write to my personal blog, so you don’t have to go to SM if you don’t want to.

    Incidentally, the CNN-IBN poll only interviewed 226 people in Kashmir, and as I understood it from the article, they were all in Srinagar. It’s a pretty small sample size, don’t you think (out of a population of more than 4 million)? I’m not saying I’m ignoring it, I’m just taking it with a grain of salt.

    The sample sizes from cities in India and Pakistan were much larger, and more reliable.

  • vishal mungi // September 4, 2007 at 4:41 pm | Reply

    I do think they’ve (media, middle class) gone overboard & should introspect on the 60th Freedom Anniversary, but celebrations are totally in order. Just because we have been one, all these years, unlike the nations all around us.

    On Kashmir’s self determination : Everything was in place for a plebiscite, who ruined the party ? I know that the gov. education has since then put me to believe the map that shows all of j&k as mine, i might be able to let it go, but i believe we can salvage this part of our nation..We believe that the local kashmiri problems can be solved if pak doesn’t cause trouble. Helplessness stems from that end.

    India in its present form matters to us & it will matter till the concept of nation states goes away.

    Caste : Much of urban India has relegated caste to the matters of marriage & relationships, so i suppose economics & education help in that respect. I wonder why is economic status based reservation not considered as a phase in lifting reservations all together. I know my friends who totally don’t need reservation, some of them won’t go for it, but their caste decides their cut off list.

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